atom feed145 messages in edu.ku.nhm.mailman.taxacomRe: [Taxacom] Does the species name h...
FromSent OnAttachments
Roderic PageJun 18, 2012 11:18 am 
Quicke, Donald L JJun 18, 2012 11:45 am 
Frederick W. SchuelerJun 18, 2012 11:57 am 
Roderic PageJun 18, 2012 12:51 pm 
Roderic PageJun 18, 2012 12:51 pm 
Karen CranstonJun 18, 2012 1:09 pm 
Roderic PageJun 18, 2012 1:25 pm 
Stephen ThorpeJun 18, 2012 1:35 pm 
Chris ThompsonJun 18, 2012 2:28 pm 
Roger BurksJun 18, 2012 2:30 pm 
Stephen ThorpeJun 18, 2012 2:42 pm 
Doug YanegaJun 18, 2012 2:55 pm 
Vladimir GusarovJun 18, 2012 2:57 pm 
Roderic PageJun 18, 2012 3:02 pm 
Neal EvenhuisJun 18, 2012 3:11 pm 
Stephen ThorpeJun 18, 2012 3:14 pm 
David CampbellJun 18, 2012 3:17 pm 
Doug YanegaJun 18, 2012 3:23 pm 
Roderic PageJun 18, 2012 3:34 pm 
Stephen ThorpeJun 18, 2012 3:48 pm 
Roderic PageJun 18, 2012 3:51 pm 
Roderic PageJun 18, 2012 3:58 pm 
Stephen ThorpeJun 18, 2012 3:58 pm 
Stephen ThorpeJun 18, 2012 4:07 pm 
Stephen ThorpeJun 18, 2012 4:20 pm 
Stephen ThorpeJun 18, 2012 4:52 pm 
Stephen ThorpeJun 18, 2012 4:53 pm 
Stephen ThorpeJun 18, 2012 4:56 pm 
Bob MesibovJun 18, 2012 5:04 pm 
Chris ThompsonJun 18, 2012 5:32 pm 
James K AdamsJun 18, 2012 6:58 pm 
Stephen ThorpeJun 18, 2012 7:01 pm 
brpa...@dwu.eduJun 18, 2012 7:02 pm 
Stephen ThorpeJun 18, 2012 7:07 pm 
Stephen ThorpeJun 18, 2012 7:09 pm 
Tony...@csiro.auJun 18, 2012 7:17 pm 
Bob MesibovJun 18, 2012 8:46 pm 
Stephen ThorpeJun 18, 2012 9:01 pm 
Anne EdwardsJun 18, 2012 9:29 pm 
Stephen ThorpeJun 18, 2012 9:48 pm 
Stephen ThorpeJun 19, 2012 12:04 am 
Paul KirkJun 19, 2012 12:04 am 
Richard PyleJun 19, 2012 12:05 am 
Stephen ThorpeJun 19, 2012 12:07 am 
Stephen ThorpeJun 19, 2012 12:10 am 
Paul KirkJun 19, 2012 12:15 am 
Richard PyleJun 19, 2012 12:18 am 
Roderic PageJun 19, 2012 12:19 am 
97 later messages
Subject:Re: [Taxacom] Does the species name have to change when it movesgenus?
From:Stephen Thorpe (step@yahoo.co.nz)
Date:Jun 18, 2012 3:58:30 pm
List:edu.ku.nhm.mailman.taxacom

we should, I suggest, bear in mind that original combinations are very nearly
unique identifiers for nominal species (the amount of homonymy must surely only
be about 1% ?) The few homonyms can be dealt with using new replacement names
(though it is a moot point if we need to replace primary homonyms in
(subjective) synonymy?)   Given the considerations above, I am not convinced that LSIDs are worth
bothering with ...   Stephen

________________________________ From: Chris Thompson <xela@cox.net> To: Roderic Page <r.p@bio.gla.ac.uk>; Frederick W. Schueler <bck@istar.ca> Cc: taxa@mailman.nhm.ku.edu Sent: Tuesday, 19 June 2012 9:28 AM Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Does the species name have to change when it movesgenus?

Sorry, Rod,

BUT it is TRADITION that rules.

I was on the editorial committee (and for a while the Chair of it) of the 4th Edition of the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature back in the mid 1990s.

I proposed two changes:

1) We abandon "gender agreement" for species epithet and instead use the ORIGINAL ending. 2) We require that all valid names must have UNIQUE original combinations (that is, the original combination could not be an homonym).

As you realize that these two small changes would guarantee an unique key for every valid species regardless of its current combination.

Unfortunately, the traditionalists on the committee (mainly Phil Tubbs and Otto Kraus) killed those ideas. And today there are commissioners who want to preserve "gender agreement," etc.

The point is that a couple of small changes would have adapted the traditional ICZN to the modern computer world. BUT NO, the traditionalists refused to change. So, instead we are going to get ZooBANK with

B26AB2A6-972F-4A18-9D1D-486A980CF80F E9541A64-EC44-4856-B2AB-B4E8400358F8 & 1FDB5781-C8A0-4088-8D18-DCD5BB01C548 for our unique name! [or in the old fashion system, Rhopalopsole exigupspira Du & Qian]

Oh, well ...

Chris

Chris Thompson

-----Original Message----- From: Roderic Page Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 3:51 PM To: Frederick W. Schueler Cc: taxa@mailman.nhm.ku.edu Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Does the species name have to change when it movesgenus?

Tradition doesn't seem a terribly compelling argument. Note that I'm not arguing for uninomial nomenclature, just that we don't muck with the names once we've coined them.

Regards

Rod

On 18 Jun 2012, at 19:57, Frederick W. Schueler wrote:

On 6/18/2012 2:18 PM, Roderic Page wrote:

OK, I know this is what we do, but my question is "why do we do this?"

* "Tradition." I think there was a song about this.

Uninominal nomenclature has been proposed...

Schueler, Frederick W., and James D.  Rising.  1972.  The stability of A.O.U. Checklist names for North American birds, and uninominal nomenclature. 26th Ontario Universities Biological Conference, Toronto. Published as: Rising, James D., and Frederick W.  Schueler.  1972.  How stable is binominal nomenclature?  Systematic Zoology 21:438-439.

...the first revisor puts a hyphen between the genus and species names, and from then that hyphenated name is tied to the type of the binominal name it was formed from, and it doesn't change.

This never caught on, and I think the reason is the offense that's given by the mismatch between the generic name in the name (so to speak), and the different genus the species may be assigned to.

fred. ===========================================

As names change over time it becomes a major challenge to find everything published about a taxon. Some groups, such as frogs, are especially prone to name changes as their classification is unstable. Frogs have a pretty good online database detailing name changes, but most animal groups lack this, leaving people like me floundering around trying to make sense of multiple names why may or may not be for the same thing.

It seems to me that names should be unique and stable. We don't change the name of a species called "africanus" if we discover that the specimen locality was actually from Australia, nor do we change the name "maximus" if we subsequently discover a bigger species. But we do if we move it to a new genus. Why?

Presumably it's because we like the idea of being able to interpret the name - two members of the same genus are presumably more closely related to each other than to a species in a different genus. But demonstrably that is often untrue (otherwise we wouldn't have all the name changes due to moving species to different genera), and we've learnt not to interpret the name literally when inferring any biological attributes, so why the desire to have the name match some current notion of classification? Why not simply accept that we can't infer relationships from the name?

It seems to be that if we simply stopped trying to make names reflect classification, at a stroke we'd remove perhaps the primary cause of nomenclatural instability. For example, the recent case of Drosophila melanogaster would be a non-issue. It's "Drosophila melanogaster" regardles sof whether it's nested in the part of the fly tree that includes Sophophora. The relationships of the taxon would have no bearing on its name.

Discuss.

--------------------------------------------------------- Roderic Page Professor of Taxonomy Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences Graham Kerr Building University of Glasgow Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK

Email: r.p@bio.gla.ac.uk Tel: +44 141 330 4778 Fax: +44 141 330 2792 Skype: rdmpage AIM: rodp@aim.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1112517192 Twitter: http://twitter.com/rdmpage Blog: http://iphylo.blogspot.com/ Home page: http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/rod.html

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--

fred

------------------------------------------------------------           Frederick W. Schueler & Aleta Karstad Bishops Mills Natural History Centre - http://pinicola.ca/bmnhc.htm Mudpuppy Night in Oxford Mills - http://pinicola.ca/mudpup1.htm Daily Paintings - http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.com/           South Nation Basin Art & Science Book           http://pinicola.ca/books/SNR_book.htm     RR#2 Bishops Mills, Ontario, Canada K0G 1T0   on the Smiths Falls Limestone Plain 44* 52'N 75* 42'W     (613)258-3107 <bckcdb at istar.ca> http://pinicola.ca/

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--------------------------------------------------------- Roderic Page Professor of Taxonomy Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences Graham Kerr Building University of Glasgow Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK

Email: r.p@bio.gla.ac.uk Tel: +44 141 330 4778 Fax: +44 141 330 2792 Skype: rdmpage AIM: rodp@aim.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1112517192 Twitter: http://twitter.com/rdmpage Blog: http://iphylo.blogspot.com/ Home page: http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/rod.html

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